I think it’s all kind of sad…and it’s an American thing…I grew up in Europe and in each encounter people have meaningful conversations where you are left with something more than before it happened, people are more genuine and share their real thoughts and feelings even in casual encounters…conversations turn into interesting debates and exchange of opinion and knowledge…but never end a friendship on the contrary, it helps deepen or start one…
It happened to me that I talk or answer and nobody cares what I’m saying…it’s a culture of superficial and fake small talk…
I think we should all work towards meaning what we say and saying what we mean with care, interest and empathy…with intention, with the purpose of teaching or learning something, where we leave a person after a conversation in a better position than where we found them and happier…and maybe we will live in a better world…🩶
Agreed. America has taken this kind of empty small talk ("same old, same old," "it is what it is," "can't complain, because what difference would it make?," "oh, you know") to an art form. Dale Carnegie courses instruct people in profit-focused small talk. But it's such a waste, a barrier to genuine connection. "Only connect."
I'm glad I'm reading comments today...& especially what you say about how small talk in the USA has become an art. Only I might call it a necessary bridge versus an art. I still think of art as something that evokes meaning ..something that we can walk away from, feeling curious🤔...I have never liked casual get togethers because I feel like I'm wading through a swamp of 'small talk'! Give me substance! Let's go deeper!
Very much concur, @jkfisher. What is your preferred type of gathering? If it’s more people, do you find quiet corners to talk with one or two? Or do you avoid gatherings too large for you? In essence, how do you move the environment to one that works and does that change with health? Mood? Energy? People present?
We, my spouse & I, have a few “chosen families” - where we live is not where either grew up - & one , with partners or spouses, can be 12 at dinner. Too much for us to learn really how all are or talk about issues that matter.
On planes, I’ve met and talked with fascinating people. Such an introvert AND empath, I’ve found I must be careful: I’m bound to feel bonded and wonder how they are, ask and find out later and it becomes draining.
Now when asked “how are you?” Or (my least preferred, “Howzit goin’?” I ask if the really want to know which is found shocking and more if I saw more than “fine.”
Substack communities allow bonding with, generally, people who are like you. It is a great medium for those (of us) with hearing loss or inability to process too much noise.
Interviewed recently with a senior exec over Zoom who, following a remarkably impersonal and substance-free conversation, ended with "If we don't talk again, have a good rest of your career...or life." What a finish!
My brain is wired differently. In my case it’s called “concrete.” for 14 years, until a year and a half ago, I was a travel nurse. I worked in different states, from coast to coast, so I was constantly meeting new people. For instance, at the grocery store, I would ask the cashier for what their opinion was of their local whatever. When they gave locally based directions, I would respond by explaining that I was a mental health travel nurse, newly arrived in town, and didn’t understand locally based references. I was struck by how many people smiled and said, “Oh, yes, my mother/brother/sister/uncle is/was a nurse.“ Many people said “thank you for what you do,” and some told me about their uncle/brother/cousin who struggles with severe mental illness, knowing I would actually understand. I became a nurse at 50, no one in my life had ever thanked me for what I was doing, with the exception of my job as a transit bus driver for five years in my 20s. My last job interview was a Zoom call. It lasted for 90 minutes, and about 70 minutes in, the interviewer said, “You know, you had me when you said you are passionate about patient education.“ I told him if that was the most important thing in our wide-ranging conversation that had touched on our experiences in the mental health field, books, traveling and the history of the team I was interviewing to join, then we were definitely on the right track. One of the things that struck me was that the director of this organization, who had taken the interview because my actual supervisor to be was not available and they really needed someone as soon as possible, was willing to take this time to engage at what turned out to be not a superficial level. I’m 74, and I’ve only been a nurse for 20 years. In my entire working life, this supervisor, this job and this team is the single best match I have ever had. We have had subsequent long conversations, but not as long as that initial one. And the thing is, I had not applied for the job before our recruiter reached out, based on a resume, she said she found on Indeed. I was not aware that I had posted your resume on indeed, it was probably an electronic artifact from a desultory, non- serious job search I had done at some point in the previous years. she called when I was in a different time zone, working night shift and thinking I should already be in bed. I had no intention of answering the call, due to the timing, but when I saw the area code was close to my home, I thought it might be something I should pay attention to. Clearly, from this post, I am what I call a “Yakkity box,” and she was willing to have the conversation it took to intrigue me about a job that I had not previously been looking for. Until I was around 55 or 60, I did not understand the social contract of meaningless exchanges.I have had long conversations of substance on airplanes. i’ve also spent three hours sitting inches from someone facing forward and entertaining myself by reading, etc.. I read your entire article with interest, hoping to understand the purpose of the meaningless exchanges you describe, but I still don’t really understand. I’m very grateful for the people who posted replies saying that this American convention rings hollow for them also. Obviously every exchange in passing cannot expand to include everything you’re thinking about. But, especially in times when we are under siege, a very brief acknowledgment of that and support can serve to remind us that we are not actually alone, and that there is a huge benefit to that. We are so deeply divided at the moment, reminders of community can be critical. our suicide rate is unconscionable, fostering habits of connection can be the answer to the question, “but what can I do?” It’s not true that we are helpless, and discovering true connections exist can be nurturing and empowering.
Very long and very personal. I suspect that you're an introvert much like myself. You likely engage with people seriously and warmly not the nothing sort that is small talk that this article was about. I also suspect you are much more comfortable with written communication. Substack was made for us.
Thank you so much for sharing this. I'd bet you touch the soul of everyone you encounter. I have only dealt with one "travel nurse", and she was the warmest, kindest person. It was just a simple blood draw, but we shared a hug before I left. I so appreciate people like you!
Neurodivergent people generally look at small talk completely differently. We think it's pointless and people should be honest and get to the point. We learn it and do it but would prefer not too because we are honest, direct people. We'd also rather say things that matter instead of empty fake talk.
You talk about your friend who was socially awkward because they didn't understand social cues. Then people stopped interacting with them because they were labeled "difficult". I'm not a Dr. but that screams neurodivergent.
It certainly does. I'm neurodivergent too and had to learn, but I still hate the emptiness of it. It doesn't come easily to me.
I think after reading this that this is why my customers. especially the ones in financial difficulty love me to pieces and send compliments to my manager. I'm REAL, and they hunger for that.
I am certainly divergent and I usually love small talk (it's making the deeper, lasting connections I struggle with). Not the cold, impersonal exchanges, but the pleasantries. I see them as a bridge and an opportunity to impart a small bit of warmth or encouragement. I do dislike "how are you" as a greeting though. I hear a loaded question! But I try to come across as real in all my exchanges.
We have this concept and conceit in Americs that we are always the worst... or the best. Do i need to remind that ancient cultures in the east elevate never saying anything that might offend to point of polite deceit, an art form in China and Japan, for example. Or that a common and probably valid criticism of Americans abroad is that we are overly familiar with strangers?
No, it really isn't an American thing. Linguistically, this type of conversation is 'exchanging phatic tokens', and it's found worldwide. Here in England, it generally takes the form of discussing the weather ("Nice weather for ducks"..."You wouldn't believe it was April!"..."Bit chilly for the time of year", etc, etc). And it isn't a waste at all, any more than the oil you put in your car is a waste. It doesn't apparently do anything: it doesn't make the car move, produce warm air, entertain you as you drive or help the car to brake. But without it, your engine would seize up. Think of phatic talk as the oil that lubricates interaction with acquaintances or strangers..
I can't speak for other cultures, but it does seem like a necessity of American life. I recently moved to a place where I've had to make all new friends and hobbies, and on many occasions I find the small talk relieves a loneliness and helps me keep my social skills honed. Small talk makes it easier to find the folk I want to befriend, and feeling comfortable talking makes it easier to befriend them.
No Sue. That’s just a cope. Mediterraneans don’t need or have this content free nonsensical blah, blah. We literally have potentially life-changing conversations with a total stranger sitting next to us on a bus. You’re trying to do what almost all women do: backwards rationalise some idiotic and unneeded behaviour by relying on nonsensical pyschobabble fed to you by the Freudian (((usual suspects))).
Of course… you being female, you inevitably talk past everyone as routine in general, while inhabiting your solipsistic “reality bubble” like an impenetrable VR headset.
While I think it’s important not to make the mistake of assuming cultural practices reflect fundamental human nature, I also think it’s just as big of a mistake, if not an even bigger one, to make misogynistic generalizations. Not only is it a mistake that hurts your ability to receive and process new information and perspectives, it’s also just frequently wrong. As an American high school student, I find that many of the people who are the best listeners are women, rather than men. If you really want to see more examples of backwards reasoning, you should look closely at what the field of evolutionary psychology does.
You are literally a child and have no idea what you’re talking about. And no, women do not make “the best listeners”. Statistically speaking women are almost incapable of listening to anyone else because they run on subjective emotions for the most part. Observing reality is not “misogynistic” any more than noting Bruce Jenner is not a woman.
1. I actually am literally an adult, and an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, not an actual argument.
2. You can’t just say “statistically speaking” without providing a reliable statistic
3. Everyone runs on subjective emotions much more than they realize, and it would be a huge mistake to think you’re immune to this. You should read through the Decision Lab’s list of cognitive biases.
4. Having emotions doesn’t make you a bad listener, it can make you more empathetic.
5. A hasty generalization is another logical fallacy and not be viewed as “observing reality.”
6. Perhaps if you find that women are refusing to listen to you, and you make a generalization across all women because of that (which is cherry picking by the way), maybe the issue lies with you being an intolerable speaker.
1. No you are not. Your brain literally has not finished developing.
2. Yes I can. Google is your friend. Learn to use it. I am not your dad. Do your own homework.
3. Please go away. I have a better understanding of how the mind works than most neurologists. If you had bothered to spend five minutes researching me you’d know this without embarrassing yourself.
4. Having emotions is not the same as running on emotions. Learn to read and pay attention.
5. Generalisations are generalisations precisely for a reason: statistical fact. Educate yourself. I never make hasty anything.
6. Never had a problem having women listen to me because I understand how their brains work better than most as the retinue of ex girlfriends can tell you as well as my current wife. In your case however, you’re being used as an example for other readers to see you as you are. And the lesson is now at an end, little girl, so go back home to feminist mommy to soothe your tears. Ta-ta.
Hey, take it easy. The judgement is unpleasant, and phrases like "most women" and "you, being female" suggest a very negative bias. As said in some movie whose title I now no longer remember, a male character was verbally tearing down women and a woman within range of the vitriol snapped, "Don't talk about women like you didn't come out of one!"
Sue: (who has taught Linguistics for many years): Provides linguistic rationale for phatic communication and awaits responses.
The Kurgan* (who must really be fun at parties): Accuses me of being female (correct), and influenced by Freud (incorrect) and invariably ignore other people (huh?); and throughout, thinks that insult is more effective than argument (possibly true, alas).
Do you have a rational response apart from claiming that 'Mediterraneans' don't use phatic tokens'? - an obviously incorrect claim, given the variety of such phrases in all the European languages I'm familiar with.
*Did you adopt your user-name because you enjoy beheading people, by the way?
Sue, In a past life, I was probably a Koala. I end a lot of my texts & emails with🐨...& for sure I hear you about the 'kurgan-dragon' 🔥🐉🔥...an unimpressive fire-vomitter. Also, this question of yours is a wonderful
retort: "Did you adopt your user-name because you enjoy beheading people, by the way"? 👏🤗👏
The nickname was given to me by other due to my sunny disposition and joie de vivre.
Rhetoric is sadly far more useful to lead the masses than dialectic.
I am NOT wrong about the blah blah nonsense pushed by Americans first, Anglos in general second and all a consequence of Protestantism in general. But the subtlety of this absolutely factual observation is lost on anyone incapable of doing strict dialectic.
And statistically women are almost entirely incapable of strict dialectic, which is why all engineering is mostly done by men.
Now… there is not the space for us to have a full on debate on these issues here. On the vanishingly small chance you might be capable of dialectic discourse I suggest you go read a bunch of stuff at my OG blog then present your case formally and logically and we can have a proper debate on whatever points you think you have about a whole ethnicity of which you are at best a distant spectator while I am a native of. Failing that: have a good day.
This article struck a chord in me. It’s lonely in the company of others who are not really caring about the person standing before them. It’s true…I’d rather be home in solitude than endure the emptiness of small talk and others busy formulating their responses rather than hearing what might be a cue for a heart felt response from the listener.
Honestly I’m exhausted by the shallow communication techniques we’ve developed as ways to avoid silence or awkwardness.
I yearn for meaningful deep connections and it’s hard to find and the search is exhausting.
Hi Cindy, I love what you say here. Can you imagine a typically artificial public gathering, where folks are milling around, drink in hand, & someone comes up to you & says what you said here?
"I yearn for meaningful deep connections and it’s hard to find and the search is exhausting".🙂
Yikes! There's so much 'authentic human' packed into those words!!
I'm grateful that people like you are hanging out here at Substack. I'm a total newbie here & you just helped me to break/melt my own ice!
This article strikes a chord in me, too. I learned the lesson of mistaking small talk for genuine interest the hard way. In a workplace meeting between me, my immediate supervisor and the President of the company, the President read to me my grievances from a two page list. One of those shortcomings was that when he asked me how my day was going I would answer him. I would give him a very brief one or two line update. If it wasn’t going well I would always end it on a high note. After working there for almost 12 years and working with him as part of the team before he became the almighty President, I thought he was actually interested. He wasn’t. Not at all. My mistake.
His disinterest gave him more ammunition to let me go. This one is especially funny. All employees met with the President on a regular basis so he could get to know us and to provide understanding of what we do in our positions. This was actually one of my suggestions he used. Again, my mistake. I was in my late fifties and planning for retirement. I had bought a vacation home in a prime location and was excited to make it work as a rental and explore the historic property it sat on. He would ask me about it at the beginning of each meeting. The complaint he later recited to me was that I was fixated on retirement. Silly me.
Apparently I’m still upset about it eight years later.
Wow, he was so cruel! I hope you’re doing well now, maybe unexpectedly. I started my pre-requisite classes for nursing school at 50, after leaving my life in Oregon to care for my folks in rural northern California. It’s worked out well for me overall so far, so I hope you’re having the same experience after having stared over in your 50’s.
If someone asks me a question, I’ll answer honestly, but in a polite way, so positive if good, but if I’m struggling it’s more like “no point in complaining because nobody listens” in a off-hand light-hearted manner (I dislike this fake aspect to society). I grew up with Dutch parents in Australia. There are some notable differences between these cultures and the English culture that I think Americans and Australians are completely ignorant of. It’s rather frustrating at times because I sound Australian (I’m first generation Australian) but I’m effectively a mix of Dutch/Frisian-Dutch (there are some slight differences between these as I’ve come to discern growing up with parents from different parts of The Netherlands) and also the Australian cultures. It means I don’t quite fit in any of the cultures because people can be ignorant about the impact that growing up in a mixed cultural environment has on a child.
"in Europe in each encounter people have meaningful conversations where you are left with something more than before it happened, people are more genuine and share their real thoughts and feelings even in casual encounters."
That must be what Houellebecq is always going on about.
There is something missing from all this. I work in a job, labor organizing, that involves a lot of long-term relationship building and making connections. In order to assess potential leaders and to motivate them, you have to know them well enough to sense what makes them tick. If you’re doing your job right, at some point—more than once—you need to really have some serious talk about what motivates them and why.
Once, when I had just started, I had gotten some basic biographical wrong about a more experienced coworker whom I had known for a year. She got an exasperated expression and said, “Look, AJ, you need to learn to be more _curious_ about other people to do this job.” And left it at that. She was, of course, perfectly correct.
I mention this as prologue of sorts. What turns out to happen when you cultivate curiosity (and this has to be a mental habit for me because it does NOT come naturally), people are incredibly glad to have real conversations. They are craving those connections. I think that for most people, the reason people talk about nothing and hide isn’t because they don’t want to talk, but they are afraid of the consequences. But if someone asks a question that goes a little deeper, it’s amazing how we open up and really talk. (That also strikes me as a possible difference with your friend who doesn’t pick up on social cues. The problem isn’t he is stating his own mind, it’s not being interested in the other person’s mind.)
So I think you’ve accurately assessed the symptoms, but your diagnosis is off.
"...he's reaching out across the void of presumed incommensurability that separates all of us." My point here and in related writings on this topic (here, for example: https://hazlitt.net/feature/radical-acts-gratitude) is precisely this: people do want to reach across the void and "only connect," in E.M. Forster's phrasing, but are afraid ("what good would it do me?")...yet once they do, the result is exactly as you say. There is plenty to fear and loads of long-term good reasons for this reticence, especially in a country like the U.S. that not only excels in small talk but offers Dale Carnegie-style courses in it, but the real point of everything (including writing articles such as this, and responding to comments like this one) should be fostering that sense of connection. There is also a kind of small talk that exists between genuine friends who really do "feel" each other, perhaps for decades, but say very little (a Mr. Show sketch did a good job of evoking this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_IYrltqYrU&ab_channel=FiveInchTaint)
Great response. Having an unusual upbringing where I did not have much interaction with peers, I was always odd. Since I grew up without friends, and a highly dysfunctional caregiver, I did not learn the acceptable social etiquette of small talk. It earned me embarrassment and ridicule. Through my early life, I looked at it as an unforgivable flaw, despising myself for a failure I couldn’t even name. It wasn’t until much later in life, when conversations around authenticity began thrumming through the world that I realized I owed my success, and friendships, to this perceived failure. When you never learn that a box exists, you don’t learn to stay in it. I was always too curious, too deep, too raw.
I understand and agree with your insight. I also understand the price one pays for authenticity in almost every business and social circle. If I’d had the choice, I’d have chosen a childhood where I’d have learned to choose when and where to step outside the box. It would have saved me years of silent shame.
Yes, I was homeschooled (within the context of a very strange family) until the 10th grade and spent little time around other kids. As much as I enjoyed some aspects of that experience, were I to do it over again and given the choice of how, I’d proceed in a more conventional way and internalize (in an organic, unthinking way, in the normal course of life) the etiquette of superficial human interaction. I can certainly fake it today, and am indeed even regarded as “good” at small talk, but I don’t like doing it.
Appreciate this thread a lot. So, turning it around onto those who make small talk and never express substantive, personal things - why can't that be taught? How to share deeply without flooding oneself or others and sharing in a way that allows for back and forth and engaging in good, maybe even creative, ways to be together? Is it that most people are so divorced from their own feelings, from understanding their own internal selves? Or some are just incapable of such?
Thank you so much! Both for being a labor organizer (I’m a retired Teamster/sister) and for making this point so well. Building actual connections takes time and effort but the rewards are so much deeper and help us be an actual part of living, breathing communities. I’ll be very controversial here and say I was struck by Marx’s explanation of the alienation that characterized the onset of the Industrial Revolution, with all its benefits and costs. I think I might have been a Luddite. I certainly am the 21st century version, especially when I see the consequences of social isolation on our clients/patients. I am a community mental health nurse and Americans’ attitudes towards anyone who’s a little different has taken a disastrous toll on on a nation where, among other things, it takes so little effort to acquire a gun. And we use it on ourselves more than citizens of any other country. Again, thank you for your efforts.
I completely agree about the alienation. One of my side projects is urbanism, specifically how to build a community that can get past that alienation by building rich networks. We have not only capitalism but the literal fiber of our cities working against us, but hell, no one ever said change had to be quick and easy.
You should do a Substack about this, AJ. I'd subscribe.
Socialism is rather famous for sucking even worse than Capitalism on this point, which makes sense given that it's an even more rigid form of the core Managerialism Mindset problem.
But there are places that show what could be possible - I think there's even a French public housing development that does well on your scale. There is a well-studied body of urbanist work, and we need more people who can bridge it to the mainstream. Substack has many of the people, left AND right, who are receptive.
Thank you! You’re very kind. Sadly, the era of blogging taught me that I am not able to write with the kind of volume and regularity to get much of a readership. I’ll just lurk in the comments. :)
I struggle with remembering peoples names when I am introduced to them or when I meet them one on one. I believe this is because I am receiving so much powerful information from their presence. There is a ton of information being exchanged through portals other than speech and ideation. And we resonate with some people much more than with others instantly. Small talk is just a bit of icing on that cake. Eye contact, vocalization itself, body language, proximity are all sizzling along while we chat. And these are only the visible forms.
A wonderful skill is improvisation. It is about listening and carrying a conversation forward with “yes, and” and “tell me more” among other useful habits. Consider it to help you become more curious about those with whom you interact.
I completely agree with AJ . The art of small talk is to be able to get to a broader, deeper more meaningful conversation. It’s not that difficult to reveal something interesting about yourself or ask a real provocative question after pleasantries and from there “develop “ a true exchange that someone will want to come back to. For a healthy caring community it’s essential.
I see small talk as a way to smile with words. It’s all about your energy. If someone wants to lament or just fill the void with air, you can fill it with love, and it doesn’t take much.
This really resonates. Lack of curiosity is huge. I have a friend who is the BEST listener and I love being around her for it. She asks the best questions. Can I gently share that, in my experience, I find men are less curious than women? At least when it comes to learning about the people around them. In my work place we all know LOTS about the personal lives of the men. I highly doubt they know half as much about the women. I stopped bothering with small talk with the men once I recognized they rarely ask any questions. Its possible we are both happier for it.
It's a tough world for men, particularly in this country at this time. There is the traditional expectation stuff for men: supposed to be on the prowl for women, competing with other men for them or just for status. Whether or not a man is in fact attracted to and 'on the prowl' for a particular woman, there is the ethic that the traditional is bad and being interested, regardless of why, can be interpreted as doing that bad traditional thing. I find it is rare to have a relationship with a woman without the sexual overtones and have lost relationships when the woman became uncomfortable because she assumed - erroneously - that I was after sex. That unspoken sits there.
Then there is the expectation that a man should be a John Wayne or a Shane and being too vulnerable is a sign of weakness or even (heaven forbid!) being a bit gay. Even if one has 'gotten beyond that', that issue also hangs there.
And if you live in a world where your father taught you those things by default and your close male friends knew little different, just where would you learn those social skills or develop the (frequently nonexistent) self-confidence to learn them by trial and error?
Oh, no need to _gently_ suggest that one. Whether it’s because of socialization, innate predisposition, or some combination, men just aren’t as relationally focused, and that shows up all over the place. I’m not all that traditionally masculine, but this is definitely a place where I veer towards that norm.
But question: do you think that women are more likely to have those deep and profound conversations, or just share a higher volume of the surface stuff?
The function of small talk is no superficial subject! Some thoughts on the gender question. Stereotypical women’s small talk (think chattering nail salon) may seem like surface stuff; men’s small talk (think joinery class) may seem on the surface to be a meaningful exchange of information. It seems to me that small talk serves both to keep connection at bay and to create connection. Neither need be alienating except to the extent that our small talk reinforces confining and exclusionary social norms. While I was taught by my mother that women’s small talk was a pointless waste of time. I learned later that the skill of small talk has many useful purposes: to fit in when you don’t want to stand out, to network, share resources, signal goodwill, establish rapport and reveal common interest. How men v. women are typically socialized to view each other’s small talk, i.e pointless chatter v. mansplaining seems to have an inherently derisive outcome.
1. Americans acknowledge each other. Europeans ignore each other. Both have downsides.
2. I’ve known a few people who routinely blow past small talk and have deep conversations with strangers all the time. My observation is that each takes risks by asking questions rarely asked, and each is intensely interested in hearing what their interlocutors have to tell them. Each is more interested in listening than in getting their turn to talk. Because their intentions are so obviously good, when they ask a risky question that doesn’t land, people forgive them.
Each of these people is widely loved.
Small talk isn’t the problem. The inability to move from small talk to substantial sharing is the problem.
“What we really want is to hurry back to solitude, to do what we actually enjoy.”
In order to make small talk more than what you describe, one has to actually be interested in people - and generally enjoy interacting.
Your stated preference for solitude may undergird your rather cynical dismissal of small talk. I enjoy people - and make a point of asking good questions rather than the minimal and blasé. And the reward is some pretty interesting exchanges - and often a surprising friendship of sorts.
No, I eagerly want connection - hence the true friends mentioned in the essay - but I also want to acknowledge the desire of most people to be left to their own devices, and having a family/2.5 jobs/etc. leaves me little time for anything but reading.
I was thinking the same exact thing when reading this. I genuinely enjoy smalltalk because I'm genuinely curious about other people and their experiences. I view smalltalk as negotiating topics. I like the connection, even if it's just to pass the time.
And I think there is an interesting class dimension to all this space-filling and smoothing over. When I went to law school from a working class background, it was the in-between moments that were hardest. None of my rehearsed content (I was 31 at the time) worked. No quoting Springsteen songs or discussing football plays or debating workout routines. Even worse, people seemed to know instinctively, in advance, that none of that stuff was going to work. Fortunately, I'd been dealing with awkward for a long time in other contexts and didn't waste much time being embarrassed. The trick was to exit the situation as soon as humanly possible.
Absolutely. My material still works best at family gatherings. Further up the ladder, I have little to add about the must-see musicals, must-read fiction books, or even premium tv shows "everyone" is watching now (I'm usually just watching sports). Beating a hasty retreat is best for all involved.
Fascinating. I’m terrible at small talk and pretty introverted but I’m impulsive and curious about people so… I often end up finding out a lot about total strangers, to the point that they aren’t strangers anymore. I think the trick could be to not even think of it as small talk. Sitting next to someone on a long train ride? Well… you can either talk to them or not. Many times I don’t, but I was once next to an older gentleman with a paper grocery bag and I asked him what had him on the train today with his groceries. By the time he left, he was sending me a copy of his self published memoirs (at my request) and he was a fascinating guy. But if you aren’t interested/ don’t want to talk to people, do you have to? Maybe you can just have a card you hand people that has your name, profession and location, and on the back a note that says “apologies- not chatty. Please send requests for conversation to …” and contact info :)
reminds me of something my daughter has said to me, « mama not everyone is into the deep dive » and so now I respect that but I leave clues when I feel able to take on the deep and heavy with someone and if they are ready they pick up on it and off we go. Otherwise we chat and that’s okay for a time.
I think people should be honest with their responses more often.
I am thinking about the person in the elevator whose wife died of cancer. If this person was truthful in their response, many would have ignored this person in the future. But perhaps one person would be genuinely caring and said kind things and perhaps.....even reached out in the future. And isn't it worth losing the mindless acquaintances to have found this one person?
You know I think it’s almost more than that. It’s like a dance. We wanna let each other in, but we’re so afraid we want others to see us, but we’re afraid at the same time. Small tack is ironically questions you’re asking hoping the other person ask them back to give you a launchpad. This was a great article gave me a lot to think about hit you in that spot where you’re the most human and yet you also feel the least at the same time.
I encounter people who ask “what’s up” or “how’s it going” multiple times throughout a conversation, whenever I see them in hall or throughout the day. It’s sooooo empty and depressing.
I wrote about encountering this phenomenon (repeated "what's ups," which are indeed eerie/bizarre/otherworldly IRL after you've gone through 3-4 of them in 6-8 hours) via text a good thirteen years ago. That column, simplistic as it was, won a bunch of Columbia Gold Circle awards, perhaps because it arrived at something universal: https://pittnews.com/article/16840/archives/bateman-how-to-give-great-text/
"Start by getting this person’s attention. Whether you go for the gusto by messaging him on his cellular phone or just wait around for hours on Gmail chat until he logs on, here’s a great opener:
USERNAME1: sup
“Sup” is a very versatile phrase. It’s cool and laid-back, with a hint of mystery behind it. It’s undoubtedly the way James Bond would contact a Bond girl if his laser-shooting wristwatch had a text-messaging feature. Let’s continue the conversation:
URNEWFRIEND: nm u
Hmm, doesn’t seem like much is happening on your new friend’s end. We’ll try to take it up a notch.
USERNAME1: cool
URNEWFRIEND: lol how r u
You’ve got him now! With the deployment of a single incongruous “cool,” he’s already laughing out loud. In response to his query, offer some insights regarding the amazing life into which you’re trying to invite him.
USERNAME1: chillin u
URNEWFRIEND: lol
Oh man, this is escalating fast. Pretty soon you guys will be braiding one another’s hair at a slumber party. But play it coy — there’s no need to give the game away yet.
USERNAME1: 😀
URNEWFRIEND: lol
Yep, that big smiley emoticon came at just the right time. It was getting a bit too tense, and the mood needed to be lightened. From here, you’re home free. Time for a great closing line.
USERNAME1: u wanna hang
URNEWFRIEND: yah ok lol
Although most textual encounters will go as smoothly as this one, some might require a bit more awesomeness on your part. Here’s where a storehouse of clever phrases can really save the day. Some particularly helpful ones include “lmao,” if you’d like to push the hilarity to its highest possible level, or “asl plz” in cases where you remain unsure about the age and sex of your new friend."
Sometimes others call me “bro” or “bruh” as if to bond with me. I never use this word so I must appear as a “bro”-user, or as apart of this “bruh” culture. I didn’t mean for it to happen but it’s great for undercover work.
Reminds me of why I enjoy sitting at a bar and striking up a conversation with the person next to me. Alcohol has a way of loosening tongues and getting people to be real.
Yeah, guys can do that. I was reminded of this the other day by a New Yorker cartoon of two guys sitting at a bar talking, don’t even remember the caption. My alcoholic ex-boyfriend was a champ at this, it helped him combat the inevitable loneliness of being on the road as a petroleum landman out in rural America. He trained me at the work, and when we were discussing me being out on the road by myself, he argued that I should have a gun stashed in the glove box of my car. His point was that when I inevitably pissed off some guy in a bar by declining his advances, the guy would follow me out to my car and attack, and I should be prepared. I reminded him that if I was going to draw a gun on someone, I should be prepared to immediately either use it or have it taken from me by someone that I had further pissed off by drawing a gun on. Case closed, I spent my down time on the road walking my German shepherd and reading/watching TV in my motel room. I was a little lonely but for me it worked out fine. But I’m glad you enjoy chatting!
I see that, you’ve clearly hit a chord! These are my people so I’ve subscribed, thanks for doing this, I believe it’s actually life sustaining. And now to get to my day and not have my life subsumed by screens, however pleasant the conversation!
I know this sounds kind of mushy, but my life experience tells me, what people need the most from other people is to be heard...to see warm eyes & soft smiles & heads gently nodding "yes". 50 or so years ago, I worked with handicapped children & they were my teachers.🐨
Interesting perspective on small talk. A while back I wrote an article called "the importance of talking to strangers when living abroad" where I tried to look for scientific evidence of what we psychologists call "weak ties" when talking to strangers. Its benefit is very high especially if it passes a certain border of the superficial. I am from Spain where people talk a lot and small talk can go further but when I came to Germany it was the opposite and I realized even more its importance especially when you emigrate and live with less social network. I really like in your article that friend of yours who ask me about politics and talk sincere. I think that is a value we should cultivate. Anyway...very interesting article and thanks for sharing these reflections.
I sympathize with this article. I'm that person who answers questions honestly, needless to say, I have only a few close friends who appreciate this trait. I'm the youngest of 4, and was the truth seeker and sayer in my family. Not always well received. One has to be who one is....truthfully! 😊
I have found that if one desires a meaningful relationship/conversation one is best served by asking a question of another that is not expected and listen carefully to the answer before responding. It seems like a simple thing but it takes practice and can be immensely rewarding!
Your comment about being curious about other people is (imho) important. To know someone, and not to exploit that knowledge, is to recognize your own humanity. Indeed America would be different if we knew the pain of each other’s death and births and ordinary living.
I think it’s all kind of sad…and it’s an American thing…I grew up in Europe and in each encounter people have meaningful conversations where you are left with something more than before it happened, people are more genuine and share their real thoughts and feelings even in casual encounters…conversations turn into interesting debates and exchange of opinion and knowledge…but never end a friendship on the contrary, it helps deepen or start one…
It happened to me that I talk or answer and nobody cares what I’m saying…it’s a culture of superficial and fake small talk…
I think we should all work towards meaning what we say and saying what we mean with care, interest and empathy…with intention, with the purpose of teaching or learning something, where we leave a person after a conversation in a better position than where we found them and happier…and maybe we will live in a better world…🩶
Agreed. America has taken this kind of empty small talk ("same old, same old," "it is what it is," "can't complain, because what difference would it make?," "oh, you know") to an art form. Dale Carnegie courses instruct people in profit-focused small talk. But it's such a waste, a barrier to genuine connection. "Only connect."
I'm glad I'm reading comments today...& especially what you say about how small talk in the USA has become an art. Only I might call it a necessary bridge versus an art. I still think of art as something that evokes meaning ..something that we can walk away from, feeling curious🤔...I have never liked casual get togethers because I feel like I'm wading through a swamp of 'small talk'! Give me substance! Let's go deeper!
Very much concur, @jkfisher. What is your preferred type of gathering? If it’s more people, do you find quiet corners to talk with one or two? Or do you avoid gatherings too large for you? In essence, how do you move the environment to one that works and does that change with health? Mood? Energy? People present?
We, my spouse & I, have a few “chosen families” - where we live is not where either grew up - & one , with partners or spouses, can be 12 at dinner. Too much for us to learn really how all are or talk about issues that matter.
On planes, I’ve met and talked with fascinating people. Such an introvert AND empath, I’ve found I must be careful: I’m bound to feel bonded and wonder how they are, ask and find out later and it becomes draining.
Now when asked “how are you?” Or (my least preferred, “Howzit goin’?” I ask if the really want to know which is found shocking and more if I saw more than “fine.”
Substack communities allow bonding with, generally, people who are like you. It is a great medium for those (of us) with hearing loss or inability to process too much noise.
Yes. I love direct people.
Exactly! There are no feeling involved at all…and you don’t even know from the conversation if someone enjoys your company you or not…😉
Interviewed recently with a senior exec over Zoom who, following a remarkably impersonal and substance-free conversation, ended with "If we don't talk again, have a good rest of your career...or life." What a finish!
My brain is wired differently. In my case it’s called “concrete.” for 14 years, until a year and a half ago, I was a travel nurse. I worked in different states, from coast to coast, so I was constantly meeting new people. For instance, at the grocery store, I would ask the cashier for what their opinion was of their local whatever. When they gave locally based directions, I would respond by explaining that I was a mental health travel nurse, newly arrived in town, and didn’t understand locally based references. I was struck by how many people smiled and said, “Oh, yes, my mother/brother/sister/uncle is/was a nurse.“ Many people said “thank you for what you do,” and some told me about their uncle/brother/cousin who struggles with severe mental illness, knowing I would actually understand. I became a nurse at 50, no one in my life had ever thanked me for what I was doing, with the exception of my job as a transit bus driver for five years in my 20s. My last job interview was a Zoom call. It lasted for 90 minutes, and about 70 minutes in, the interviewer said, “You know, you had me when you said you are passionate about patient education.“ I told him if that was the most important thing in our wide-ranging conversation that had touched on our experiences in the mental health field, books, traveling and the history of the team I was interviewing to join, then we were definitely on the right track. One of the things that struck me was that the director of this organization, who had taken the interview because my actual supervisor to be was not available and they really needed someone as soon as possible, was willing to take this time to engage at what turned out to be not a superficial level. I’m 74, and I’ve only been a nurse for 20 years. In my entire working life, this supervisor, this job and this team is the single best match I have ever had. We have had subsequent long conversations, but not as long as that initial one. And the thing is, I had not applied for the job before our recruiter reached out, based on a resume, she said she found on Indeed. I was not aware that I had posted your resume on indeed, it was probably an electronic artifact from a desultory, non- serious job search I had done at some point in the previous years. she called when I was in a different time zone, working night shift and thinking I should already be in bed. I had no intention of answering the call, due to the timing, but when I saw the area code was close to my home, I thought it might be something I should pay attention to. Clearly, from this post, I am what I call a “Yakkity box,” and she was willing to have the conversation it took to intrigue me about a job that I had not previously been looking for. Until I was around 55 or 60, I did not understand the social contract of meaningless exchanges.I have had long conversations of substance on airplanes. i’ve also spent three hours sitting inches from someone facing forward and entertaining myself by reading, etc.. I read your entire article with interest, hoping to understand the purpose of the meaningless exchanges you describe, but I still don’t really understand. I’m very grateful for the people who posted replies saying that this American convention rings hollow for them also. Obviously every exchange in passing cannot expand to include everything you’re thinking about. But, especially in times when we are under siege, a very brief acknowledgment of that and support can serve to remind us that we are not actually alone, and that there is a huge benefit to that. We are so deeply divided at the moment, reminders of community can be critical. our suicide rate is unconscionable, fostering habits of connection can be the answer to the question, “but what can I do?” It’s not true that we are helpless, and discovering true connections exist can be nurturing and empowering.
Very long and very personal. I suspect that you're an introvert much like myself. You likely engage with people seriously and warmly not the nothing sort that is small talk that this article was about. I also suspect you are much more comfortable with written communication. Substack was made for us.
that it was
Thank you so much for sharing this. I'd bet you touch the soul of everyone you encounter. I have only dealt with one "travel nurse", and she was the warmest, kindest person. It was just a simple blood draw, but we shared a hug before I left. I so appreciate people like you!
Oh how cold.🥶And Zoom needs people who communicate...who listen! All businesses need listeners. But I bet they're hard to find these days!
Neurodivergent people generally look at small talk completely differently. We think it's pointless and people should be honest and get to the point. We learn it and do it but would prefer not too because we are honest, direct people. We'd also rather say things that matter instead of empty fake talk.
You talk about your friend who was socially awkward because they didn't understand social cues. Then people stopped interacting with them because they were labeled "difficult". I'm not a Dr. but that screams neurodivergent.
It certainly does. I'm neurodivergent too and had to learn, but I still hate the emptiness of it. It doesn't come easily to me.
I think after reading this that this is why my customers. especially the ones in financial difficulty love me to pieces and send compliments to my manager. I'm REAL, and they hunger for that.
I am certainly divergent and I usually love small talk (it's making the deeper, lasting connections I struggle with). Not the cold, impersonal exchanges, but the pleasantries. I see them as a bridge and an opportunity to impart a small bit of warmth or encouragement. I do dislike "how are you" as a greeting though. I hear a loaded question! But I try to come across as real in all my exchanges.
We have this concept and conceit in Americs that we are always the worst... or the best. Do i need to remind that ancient cultures in the east elevate never saying anything that might offend to point of polite deceit, an art form in China and Japan, for example. Or that a common and probably valid criticism of Americans abroad is that we are overly familiar with strangers?
No, it really isn't an American thing. Linguistically, this type of conversation is 'exchanging phatic tokens', and it's found worldwide. Here in England, it generally takes the form of discussing the weather ("Nice weather for ducks"..."You wouldn't believe it was April!"..."Bit chilly for the time of year", etc, etc). And it isn't a waste at all, any more than the oil you put in your car is a waste. It doesn't apparently do anything: it doesn't make the car move, produce warm air, entertain you as you drive or help the car to brake. But without it, your engine would seize up. Think of phatic talk as the oil that lubricates interaction with acquaintances or strangers..
I can't speak for other cultures, but it does seem like a necessity of American life. I recently moved to a place where I've had to make all new friends and hobbies, and on many occasions I find the small talk relieves a loneliness and helps me keep my social skills honed. Small talk makes it easier to find the folk I want to befriend, and feeling comfortable talking makes it easier to befriend them.
No Sue. That’s just a cope. Mediterraneans don’t need or have this content free nonsensical blah, blah. We literally have potentially life-changing conversations with a total stranger sitting next to us on a bus. You’re trying to do what almost all women do: backwards rationalise some idiotic and unneeded behaviour by relying on nonsensical pyschobabble fed to you by the Freudian (((usual suspects))).
Of course… you being female, you inevitably talk past everyone as routine in general, while inhabiting your solipsistic “reality bubble” like an impenetrable VR headset.
While I think it’s important not to make the mistake of assuming cultural practices reflect fundamental human nature, I also think it’s just as big of a mistake, if not an even bigger one, to make misogynistic generalizations. Not only is it a mistake that hurts your ability to receive and process new information and perspectives, it’s also just frequently wrong. As an American high school student, I find that many of the people who are the best listeners are women, rather than men. If you really want to see more examples of backwards reasoning, you should look closely at what the field of evolutionary psychology does.
You are literally a child and have no idea what you’re talking about. And no, women do not make “the best listeners”. Statistically speaking women are almost incapable of listening to anyone else because they run on subjective emotions for the most part. Observing reality is not “misogynistic” any more than noting Bruce Jenner is not a woman.
1. I actually am literally an adult, and an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, not an actual argument.
2. You can’t just say “statistically speaking” without providing a reliable statistic
3. Everyone runs on subjective emotions much more than they realize, and it would be a huge mistake to think you’re immune to this. You should read through the Decision Lab’s list of cognitive biases.
4. Having emotions doesn’t make you a bad listener, it can make you more empathetic.
5. A hasty generalization is another logical fallacy and not be viewed as “observing reality.”
6. Perhaps if you find that women are refusing to listen to you, and you make a generalization across all women because of that (which is cherry picking by the way), maybe the issue lies with you being an intolerable speaker.
You write and think well for a teen
preach 🙌🙌🙌
1. No you are not. Your brain literally has not finished developing.
2. Yes I can. Google is your friend. Learn to use it. I am not your dad. Do your own homework.
3. Please go away. I have a better understanding of how the mind works than most neurologists. If you had bothered to spend five minutes researching me you’d know this without embarrassing yourself.
4. Having emotions is not the same as running on emotions. Learn to read and pay attention.
5. Generalisations are generalisations precisely for a reason: statistical fact. Educate yourself. I never make hasty anything.
6. Never had a problem having women listen to me because I understand how their brains work better than most as the retinue of ex girlfriends can tell you as well as my current wife. In your case however, you’re being used as an example for other readers to see you as you are. And the lesson is now at an end, little girl, so go back home to feminist mommy to soothe your tears. Ta-ta.
Hey, take it easy. The judgement is unpleasant, and phrases like "most women" and "you, being female" suggest a very negative bias. As said in some movie whose title I now no longer remember, a male character was verbally tearing down women and a woman within range of the vitriol snapped, "Don't talk about women like you didn't come out of one!"
I think a great point of the article is that this behavior is not nonsensical, it's societal glue.
Yes!
While in reality it is precisely the opposite. But kool aid drinkers gonna kool aid drink.
Sue: (who has taught Linguistics for many years): Provides linguistic rationale for phatic communication and awaits responses.
The Kurgan* (who must really be fun at parties): Accuses me of being female (correct), and influenced by Freud (incorrect) and invariably ignore other people (huh?); and throughout, thinks that insult is more effective than argument (possibly true, alas).
Do you have a rational response apart from claiming that 'Mediterraneans' don't use phatic tokens'? - an obviously incorrect claim, given the variety of such phrases in all the European languages I'm familiar with.
*Did you adopt your user-name because you enjoy beheading people, by the way?
Sue, In a past life, I was probably a Koala. I end a lot of my texts & emails with🐨...& for sure I hear you about the 'kurgan-dragon' 🔥🐉🔥...an unimpressive fire-vomitter. Also, this question of yours is a wonderful
retort: "Did you adopt your user-name because you enjoy beheading people, by the way"? 👏🤗👏
The nickname was given to me by other due to my sunny disposition and joie de vivre.
Rhetoric is sadly far more useful to lead the masses than dialectic.
I am NOT wrong about the blah blah nonsense pushed by Americans first, Anglos in general second and all a consequence of Protestantism in general. But the subtlety of this absolutely factual observation is lost on anyone incapable of doing strict dialectic.
And statistically women are almost entirely incapable of strict dialectic, which is why all engineering is mostly done by men.
Now… there is not the space for us to have a full on debate on these issues here. On the vanishingly small chance you might be capable of dialectic discourse I suggest you go read a bunch of stuff at my OG blog then present your case formally and logically and we can have a proper debate on whatever points you think you have about a whole ethnicity of which you are at best a distant spectator while I am a native of. Failing that: have a good day.
Hadn’t thought of that. Interesting perspective!
Interesting…🧐
Well-played.
This article struck a chord in me. It’s lonely in the company of others who are not really caring about the person standing before them. It’s true…I’d rather be home in solitude than endure the emptiness of small talk and others busy formulating their responses rather than hearing what might be a cue for a heart felt response from the listener.
Honestly I’m exhausted by the shallow communication techniques we’ve developed as ways to avoid silence or awkwardness.
I yearn for meaningful deep connections and it’s hard to find and the search is exhausting.
Thanks for your thoughtful piece.
Hi Cindy, I love what you say here. Can you imagine a typically artificial public gathering, where folks are milling around, drink in hand, & someone comes up to you & says what you said here?
"I yearn for meaningful deep connections and it’s hard to find and the search is exhausting".🙂
Yikes! There's so much 'authentic human' packed into those words!!
I'm grateful that people like you are hanging out here at Substack. I'm a total newbie here & you just helped me to break/melt my own ice!
🕯️🧊🐨🧊🕯️
Awe thank you. I have never written on here before and just found Oliver’s post for the first time yesterday. It’s good stuff. Have a great day!
This article strikes a chord in me, too. I learned the lesson of mistaking small talk for genuine interest the hard way. In a workplace meeting between me, my immediate supervisor and the President of the company, the President read to me my grievances from a two page list. One of those shortcomings was that when he asked me how my day was going I would answer him. I would give him a very brief one or two line update. If it wasn’t going well I would always end it on a high note. After working there for almost 12 years and working with him as part of the team before he became the almighty President, I thought he was actually interested. He wasn’t. Not at all. My mistake.
His disinterest gave him more ammunition to let me go. This one is especially funny. All employees met with the President on a regular basis so he could get to know us and to provide understanding of what we do in our positions. This was actually one of my suggestions he used. Again, my mistake. I was in my late fifties and planning for retirement. I had bought a vacation home in a prime location and was excited to make it work as a rental and explore the historic property it sat on. He would ask me about it at the beginning of each meeting. The complaint he later recited to me was that I was fixated on retirement. Silly me.
Apparently I’m still upset about it eight years later.
Wow, he was so cruel! I hope you’re doing well now, maybe unexpectedly. I started my pre-requisite classes for nursing school at 50, after leaving my life in Oregon to care for my folks in rural northern California. It’s worked out well for me overall so far, so I hope you’re having the same experience after having stared over in your 50’s.
This. Americanism is hell. For the Americans too.
America is pretty big. Your generalization is ignorant.
Stupid people outnumber intelligent ones by many orders if magnitude. Thanks for proving the math is always as per Prof. Cipolla’s rule n. 1.
You are absolutely right ! Thanks for sharing what is true to other culture. This small talk thing is not the way it is every where.
If someone asks me a question, I’ll answer honestly, but in a polite way, so positive if good, but if I’m struggling it’s more like “no point in complaining because nobody listens” in a off-hand light-hearted manner (I dislike this fake aspect to society). I grew up with Dutch parents in Australia. There are some notable differences between these cultures and the English culture that I think Americans and Australians are completely ignorant of. It’s rather frustrating at times because I sound Australian (I’m first generation Australian) but I’m effectively a mix of Dutch/Frisian-Dutch (there are some slight differences between these as I’ve come to discern growing up with parents from different parts of The Netherlands) and also the Australian cultures. It means I don’t quite fit in any of the cultures because people can be ignorant about the impact that growing up in a mixed cultural environment has on a child.
That explains why I get along so well with expats!
"in Europe in each encounter people have meaningful conversations where you are left with something more than before it happened, people are more genuine and share their real thoughts and feelings even in casual encounters."
That must be what Houellebecq is always going on about.
There is something missing from all this. I work in a job, labor organizing, that involves a lot of long-term relationship building and making connections. In order to assess potential leaders and to motivate them, you have to know them well enough to sense what makes them tick. If you’re doing your job right, at some point—more than once—you need to really have some serious talk about what motivates them and why.
Once, when I had just started, I had gotten some basic biographical wrong about a more experienced coworker whom I had known for a year. She got an exasperated expression and said, “Look, AJ, you need to learn to be more _curious_ about other people to do this job.” And left it at that. She was, of course, perfectly correct.
I mention this as prologue of sorts. What turns out to happen when you cultivate curiosity (and this has to be a mental habit for me because it does NOT come naturally), people are incredibly glad to have real conversations. They are craving those connections. I think that for most people, the reason people talk about nothing and hide isn’t because they don’t want to talk, but they are afraid of the consequences. But if someone asks a question that goes a little deeper, it’s amazing how we open up and really talk. (That also strikes me as a possible difference with your friend who doesn’t pick up on social cues. The problem isn’t he is stating his own mind, it’s not being interested in the other person’s mind.)
So I think you’ve accurately assessed the symptoms, but your diagnosis is off.
"...he's reaching out across the void of presumed incommensurability that separates all of us." My point here and in related writings on this topic (here, for example: https://hazlitt.net/feature/radical-acts-gratitude) is precisely this: people do want to reach across the void and "only connect," in E.M. Forster's phrasing, but are afraid ("what good would it do me?")...yet once they do, the result is exactly as you say. There is plenty to fear and loads of long-term good reasons for this reticence, especially in a country like the U.S. that not only excels in small talk but offers Dale Carnegie-style courses in it, but the real point of everything (including writing articles such as this, and responding to comments like this one) should be fostering that sense of connection. There is also a kind of small talk that exists between genuine friends who really do "feel" each other, perhaps for decades, but say very little (a Mr. Show sketch did a good job of evoking this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_IYrltqYrU&ab_channel=FiveInchTaint)
Thank you for clarifying while I was busy posting!
Great response. Having an unusual upbringing where I did not have much interaction with peers, I was always odd. Since I grew up without friends, and a highly dysfunctional caregiver, I did not learn the acceptable social etiquette of small talk. It earned me embarrassment and ridicule. Through my early life, I looked at it as an unforgivable flaw, despising myself for a failure I couldn’t even name. It wasn’t until much later in life, when conversations around authenticity began thrumming through the world that I realized I owed my success, and friendships, to this perceived failure. When you never learn that a box exists, you don’t learn to stay in it. I was always too curious, too deep, too raw.
I understand and agree with your insight. I also understand the price one pays for authenticity in almost every business and social circle. If I’d had the choice, I’d have chosen a childhood where I’d have learned to choose when and where to step outside the box. It would have saved me years of silent shame.
Yes, I was homeschooled (within the context of a very strange family) until the 10th grade and spent little time around other kids. As much as I enjoyed some aspects of that experience, were I to do it over again and given the choice of how, I’d proceed in a more conventional way and internalize (in an organic, unthinking way, in the normal course of life) the etiquette of superficial human interaction. I can certainly fake it today, and am indeed even regarded as “good” at small talk, but I don’t like doing it.
Appreciate this thread a lot. So, turning it around onto those who make small talk and never express substantive, personal things - why can't that be taught? How to share deeply without flooding oneself or others and sharing in a way that allows for back and forth and engaging in good, maybe even creative, ways to be together? Is it that most people are so divorced from their own feelings, from understanding their own internal selves? Or some are just incapable of such?
Thank you so much! Both for being a labor organizer (I’m a retired Teamster/sister) and for making this point so well. Building actual connections takes time and effort but the rewards are so much deeper and help us be an actual part of living, breathing communities. I’ll be very controversial here and say I was struck by Marx’s explanation of the alienation that characterized the onset of the Industrial Revolution, with all its benefits and costs. I think I might have been a Luddite. I certainly am the 21st century version, especially when I see the consequences of social isolation on our clients/patients. I am a community mental health nurse and Americans’ attitudes towards anyone who’s a little different has taken a disastrous toll on on a nation where, among other things, it takes so little effort to acquire a gun. And we use it on ourselves more than citizens of any other country. Again, thank you for your efforts.
Hi, sister!
I completely agree about the alienation. One of my side projects is urbanism, specifically how to build a community that can get past that alienation by building rich networks. We have not only capitalism but the literal fiber of our cities working against us, but hell, no one ever said change had to be quick and easy.
Thank you so much for doing this critical work❣️
You should do a Substack about this, AJ. I'd subscribe.
Socialism is rather famous for sucking even worse than Capitalism on this point, which makes sense given that it's an even more rigid form of the core Managerialism Mindset problem.
But there are places that show what could be possible - I think there's even a French public housing development that does well on your scale. There is a well-studied body of urbanist work, and we need more people who can bridge it to the mainstream. Substack has many of the people, left AND right, who are receptive.
Thank you! You’re very kind. Sadly, the era of blogging taught me that I am not able to write with the kind of volume and regularity to get much of a readership. I’ll just lurk in the comments. :)
it is said that 90% of communication is non-verbal
I struggle with remembering peoples names when I am introduced to them or when I meet them one on one. I believe this is because I am receiving so much powerful information from their presence. There is a ton of information being exchanged through portals other than speech and ideation. And we resonate with some people much more than with others instantly. Small talk is just a bit of icing on that cake. Eye contact, vocalization itself, body language, proximity are all sizzling along while we chat. And these are only the visible forms.
*looks doubtful*
;)
A wonderful skill is improvisation. It is about listening and carrying a conversation forward with “yes, and” and “tell me more” among other useful habits. Consider it to help you become more curious about those with whom you interact.
My usual is “OK, explain that to me” with a specific question, because I’m super-analytical and that’s how I process things. :)
The problem for me is not the “what to say,” but it’s remembering to ask it instead of to talk about myself.
I completely agree with AJ . The art of small talk is to be able to get to a broader, deeper more meaningful conversation. It’s not that difficult to reveal something interesting about yourself or ask a real provocative question after pleasantries and from there “develop “ a true exchange that someone will want to come back to. For a healthy caring community it’s essential.
I see small talk as a way to smile with words. It’s all about your energy. If someone wants to lament or just fill the void with air, you can fill it with love, and it doesn’t take much.
This really resonates. Lack of curiosity is huge. I have a friend who is the BEST listener and I love being around her for it. She asks the best questions. Can I gently share that, in my experience, I find men are less curious than women? At least when it comes to learning about the people around them. In my work place we all know LOTS about the personal lives of the men. I highly doubt they know half as much about the women. I stopped bothering with small talk with the men once I recognized they rarely ask any questions. Its possible we are both happier for it.
It's a tough world for men, particularly in this country at this time. There is the traditional expectation stuff for men: supposed to be on the prowl for women, competing with other men for them or just for status. Whether or not a man is in fact attracted to and 'on the prowl' for a particular woman, there is the ethic that the traditional is bad and being interested, regardless of why, can be interpreted as doing that bad traditional thing. I find it is rare to have a relationship with a woman without the sexual overtones and have lost relationships when the woman became uncomfortable because she assumed - erroneously - that I was after sex. That unspoken sits there.
Then there is the expectation that a man should be a John Wayne or a Shane and being too vulnerable is a sign of weakness or even (heaven forbid!) being a bit gay. Even if one has 'gotten beyond that', that issue also hangs there.
And if you live in a world where your father taught you those things by default and your close male friends knew little different, just where would you learn those social skills or develop the (frequently nonexistent) self-confidence to learn them by trial and error?
Oh, no need to _gently_ suggest that one. Whether it’s because of socialization, innate predisposition, or some combination, men just aren’t as relationally focused, and that shows up all over the place. I’m not all that traditionally masculine, but this is definitely a place where I veer towards that norm.
But question: do you think that women are more likely to have those deep and profound conversations, or just share a higher volume of the surface stuff?
The function of small talk is no superficial subject! Some thoughts on the gender question. Stereotypical women’s small talk (think chattering nail salon) may seem like surface stuff; men’s small talk (think joinery class) may seem on the surface to be a meaningful exchange of information. It seems to me that small talk serves both to keep connection at bay and to create connection. Neither need be alienating except to the extent that our small talk reinforces confining and exclusionary social norms. While I was taught by my mother that women’s small talk was a pointless waste of time. I learned later that the skill of small talk has many useful purposes: to fit in when you don’t want to stand out, to network, share resources, signal goodwill, establish rapport and reveal common interest. How men v. women are typically socialized to view each other’s small talk, i.e pointless chatter v. mansplaining seems to have an inherently derisive outcome.
1. Americans acknowledge each other. Europeans ignore each other. Both have downsides.
2. I’ve known a few people who routinely blow past small talk and have deep conversations with strangers all the time. My observation is that each takes risks by asking questions rarely asked, and each is intensely interested in hearing what their interlocutors have to tell them. Each is more interested in listening than in getting their turn to talk. Because their intentions are so obviously good, when they ask a risky question that doesn’t land, people forgive them.
Each of these people is widely loved.
Small talk isn’t the problem. The inability to move from small talk to substantial sharing is the problem.
Thank you!
Yes this!!!
“What we really want is to hurry back to solitude, to do what we actually enjoy.”
In order to make small talk more than what you describe, one has to actually be interested in people - and generally enjoy interacting.
Your stated preference for solitude may undergird your rather cynical dismissal of small talk. I enjoy people - and make a point of asking good questions rather than the minimal and blasé. And the reward is some pretty interesting exchanges - and often a surprising friendship of sorts.
No, I eagerly want connection - hence the true friends mentioned in the essay - but I also want to acknowledge the desire of most people to be left to their own devices, and having a family/2.5 jobs/etc. leaves me little time for anything but reading.
A practical discussion of this hunt for connection is something I addressed here: https://hazlitt.net/feature/radical-acts-gratitude
Obviously, in the course of writing a heavily stylized piece, lots of things get elided, omitted, compressed, etc.
I was thinking the same exact thing when reading this. I genuinely enjoy smalltalk because I'm genuinely curious about other people and their experiences. I view smalltalk as negotiating topics. I like the connection, even if it's just to pass the time.
And I think there is an interesting class dimension to all this space-filling and smoothing over. When I went to law school from a working class background, it was the in-between moments that were hardest. None of my rehearsed content (I was 31 at the time) worked. No quoting Springsteen songs or discussing football plays or debating workout routines. Even worse, people seemed to know instinctively, in advance, that none of that stuff was going to work. Fortunately, I'd been dealing with awkward for a long time in other contexts and didn't waste much time being embarrassed. The trick was to exit the situation as soon as humanly possible.
Absolutely. My material still works best at family gatherings. Further up the ladder, I have little to add about the must-see musicals, must-read fiction books, or even premium tv shows "everyone" is watching now (I'm usually just watching sports). Beating a hasty retreat is best for all involved.
for a little while, people DID want to talk about "Trump and wrestling," but thankfully they no longer do (Trump OR wrestling)
Fascinating. I’m terrible at small talk and pretty introverted but I’m impulsive and curious about people so… I often end up finding out a lot about total strangers, to the point that they aren’t strangers anymore. I think the trick could be to not even think of it as small talk. Sitting next to someone on a long train ride? Well… you can either talk to them or not. Many times I don’t, but I was once next to an older gentleman with a paper grocery bag and I asked him what had him on the train today with his groceries. By the time he left, he was sending me a copy of his self published memoirs (at my request) and he was a fascinating guy. But if you aren’t interested/ don’t want to talk to people, do you have to? Maybe you can just have a card you hand people that has your name, profession and location, and on the back a note that says “apologies- not chatty. Please send requests for conversation to …” and contact info :)
Love this 🥰
I think ear buds or head phones are the card that says 'not chatty' certainly for me when I'm not in the mood for small talk..
reminds me of something my daughter has said to me, « mama not everyone is into the deep dive » and so now I respect that but I leave clues when I feel able to take on the deep and heavy with someone and if they are ready they pick up on it and off we go. Otherwise we chat and that’s okay for a time.
I think people should be honest with their responses more often.
I am thinking about the person in the elevator whose wife died of cancer. If this person was truthful in their response, many would have ignored this person in the future. But perhaps one person would be genuinely caring and said kind things and perhaps.....even reached out in the future. And isn't it worth losing the mindless acquaintances to have found this one person?
You know I think it’s almost more than that. It’s like a dance. We wanna let each other in, but we’re so afraid we want others to see us, but we’re afraid at the same time. Small tack is ironically questions you’re asking hoping the other person ask them back to give you a launchpad. This was a great article gave me a lot to think about hit you in that spot where you’re the most human and yet you also feel the least at the same time.
I encounter people who ask “what’s up” or “how’s it going” multiple times throughout a conversation, whenever I see them in hall or throughout the day. It’s sooooo empty and depressing.
I wrote about encountering this phenomenon (repeated "what's ups," which are indeed eerie/bizarre/otherworldly IRL after you've gone through 3-4 of them in 6-8 hours) via text a good thirteen years ago. That column, simplistic as it was, won a bunch of Columbia Gold Circle awards, perhaps because it arrived at something universal: https://pittnews.com/article/16840/archives/bateman-how-to-give-great-text/
"Start by getting this person’s attention. Whether you go for the gusto by messaging him on his cellular phone or just wait around for hours on Gmail chat until he logs on, here’s a great opener:
USERNAME1: sup
“Sup” is a very versatile phrase. It’s cool and laid-back, with a hint of mystery behind it. It’s undoubtedly the way James Bond would contact a Bond girl if his laser-shooting wristwatch had a text-messaging feature. Let’s continue the conversation:
URNEWFRIEND: nm u
Hmm, doesn’t seem like much is happening on your new friend’s end. We’ll try to take it up a notch.
USERNAME1: cool
URNEWFRIEND: lol how r u
You’ve got him now! With the deployment of a single incongruous “cool,” he’s already laughing out loud. In response to his query, offer some insights regarding the amazing life into which you’re trying to invite him.
USERNAME1: chillin u
URNEWFRIEND: lol
Oh man, this is escalating fast. Pretty soon you guys will be braiding one another’s hair at a slumber party. But play it coy — there’s no need to give the game away yet.
USERNAME1: 😀
URNEWFRIEND: lol
Yep, that big smiley emoticon came at just the right time. It was getting a bit too tense, and the mood needed to be lightened. From here, you’re home free. Time for a great closing line.
USERNAME1: u wanna hang
URNEWFRIEND: yah ok lol
Although most textual encounters will go as smoothly as this one, some might require a bit more awesomeness on your part. Here’s where a storehouse of clever phrases can really save the day. Some particularly helpful ones include “lmao,” if you’d like to push the hilarity to its highest possible level, or “asl plz” in cases where you remain unsure about the age and sex of your new friend."
Haha this is a similar breakdown of me processing these interactions. How do we understand enough about the ceremony to interact?
I find them stressful.
stressful, bewildering, strange. "sup" "nm u" "nm u" "lol u just said that!"
Sometimes others call me “bro” or “bruh” as if to bond with me. I never use this word so I must appear as a “bro”-user, or as apart of this “bruh” culture. I didn’t mean for it to happen but it’s great for undercover work.
“Boss” is another good one
Reminds me of why I enjoy sitting at a bar and striking up a conversation with the person next to me. Alcohol has a way of loosening tongues and getting people to be real.
Yeah, guys can do that. I was reminded of this the other day by a New Yorker cartoon of two guys sitting at a bar talking, don’t even remember the caption. My alcoholic ex-boyfriend was a champ at this, it helped him combat the inevitable loneliness of being on the road as a petroleum landman out in rural America. He trained me at the work, and when we were discussing me being out on the road by myself, he argued that I should have a gun stashed in the glove box of my car. His point was that when I inevitably pissed off some guy in a bar by declining his advances, the guy would follow me out to my car and attack, and I should be prepared. I reminded him that if I was going to draw a gun on someone, I should be prepared to immediately either use it or have it taken from me by someone that I had further pissed off by drawing a gun on. Case closed, I spent my down time on the road walking my German shepherd and reading/watching TV in my motel room. I was a little lonely but for me it worked out fine. But I’m glad you enjoy chatting!
What’s fascinating here is that the comments (on small talk) are filling up with fairly lengthy conversations back and forth!
I see that, you’ve clearly hit a chord! These are my people so I’ve subscribed, thanks for doing this, I believe it’s actually life sustaining. And now to get to my day and not have my life subsumed by screens, however pleasant the conversation!
The loneliness term hits home, but part of it is also curiosity and the need for connection
Unless I tell them I'm a jeweller, then I can almost feel the eyes roll & boredom setting in.
I know this sounds kind of mushy, but my life experience tells me, what people need the most from other people is to be heard...to see warm eyes & soft smiles & heads gently nodding "yes". 50 or so years ago, I worked with handicapped children & they were my teachers.🐨
Interesting perspective on small talk. A while back I wrote an article called "the importance of talking to strangers when living abroad" where I tried to look for scientific evidence of what we psychologists call "weak ties" when talking to strangers. Its benefit is very high especially if it passes a certain border of the superficial. I am from Spain where people talk a lot and small talk can go further but when I came to Germany it was the opposite and I realized even more its importance especially when you emigrate and live with less social network. I really like in your article that friend of yours who ask me about politics and talk sincere. I think that is a value we should cultivate. Anyway...very interesting article and thanks for sharing these reflections.
Since Covid I have asked and listened more often and more deeply. It has made an impact on how I perceive people and the world
I sympathize with this article. I'm that person who answers questions honestly, needless to say, I have only a few close friends who appreciate this trait. I'm the youngest of 4, and was the truth seeker and sayer in my family. Not always well received. One has to be who one is....truthfully! 😊
I have found that if one desires a meaningful relationship/conversation one is best served by asking a question of another that is not expected and listen carefully to the answer before responding. It seems like a simple thing but it takes practice and can be immensely rewarding!
Your comment about being curious about other people is (imho) important. To know someone, and not to exploit that knowledge, is to recognize your own humanity. Indeed America would be different if we knew the pain of each other’s death and births and ordinary living.