You needed 150 dollars. It was shite but so what? You’re very funny about it. The young? Well I fear for them but in England the lower orders do comedy well. Everyday banter. The grandparents are always funnier though. They just need to live a little and get over themselves. I do worry that the funny street banter in everyday chats is decreasing though. Flattened by this weird glossy Netflixy crap. I hope and think that old tradition of having a laugh will be as precious to the young as it was to the oldies.
yeah, at the end of the day, it was 2017, I was (briefly) between jobs, and every dollar counted. and also: the Netflix stuff doesn't do it for me, either. they're falling more and more into a formula but it isn't a good one. The HBO Max Pee-Wee Herman documentary (the show I watched with my dad as a kid; something for everyone) was indeed quite good, though
I actually spend a lot of time (maybe I need a different hobby?) trying to guess which thing I do is going to be abhorred by my nieces when they grow up. I'm kind of glad to see I'm not the only one who does this. I can never imagine what it's gonna be but I just KNOW it's gonna be something. My husband and I joke about it sometimes, like... "someday people will be reading about this and be like I CANNOT BELIEVE THEY WERE COOKING WITH THAT / EATING THAT / WEARING THAT - NO WONDER _______ WAS UP / DOWN / WHATEVER!! IDIOTS!!"
I definitely remember reading an article about how Friends didn't age well - something that made the rounds repeatedly around this time - but I don't think it was this one. My memory is terrible though, so who knows.
I'm drinking a diet soda right now and I had a pop-tart for breakfast and I mean, obviously the future kids will judge me harshly for that. And I take pride in the fact that I'm holding up my end of doing stuff they can feel superior about someday.
yes, none of us is safe! I'd be a terrible historian if I didn't SHARE THIS ONE BIG IMPORTANT MESSAGE. and at least you already get it, so my work is partly done
"The editor wanted me to write about how backward the 90s were. How enlightened we are now. How the arc of history bends towards justice. I wanted to write about how the arc of history doesn't bend anywhere. How it's just people being people, always thinking they're better than the people who came before."
Please write the article you wanted to write - it's something I very much want to read.
I've had this conversation back and forth for years. Our descendants will always find fault with us in ways we can't even imagine - never mind our immediate progeny. Some, like my fondness for eating eggs and other animal products, are not exactly a secret.
Yes, and I think this is a fascinating thing for people to contemplate. The editors thought the sins of Friends made for a more compelling topic. Maybe we were both right (I don’t think so)
It certainly gives pause before engaging in summary judgments of people you've not met face to face. I expect my son and daughter to find me wanting in many regards - whether on climate change or the current political moment in the US - there is always something more that I could do or could have done. On the other hand, I've come to realize, as a parent, that having children grants tremendous "cover" for failures to act on all sorts of urgent matters, but the corollary is that they may be our most severe judges, rightly or wrongly.
A lovely reminder of the flow of time and not to associate any sense of self-worth or value of my own writing against failed pitches for what, historically, had been my “dream pubs.”
Often the bigger the byline, the worse the content I’ve had go out under my name … unless the editor was a close friend or they were just reprinting somethjng. It’s why I write for the same 6-12 places over and over most of the time
I think there's a lot of truth and wisdom in what you're saying here. But don't you also think the arc of modern history has, broadly, been in the right direction? That though the pendulum may sometimes swing too far or in the wrong direction, we live in a fairer world than 40 years ago, and they lived in a fairer and better world than 40 years before?
Absolutely, just in terms of antibiotics and air conditioning and the green revolution and so on — huge lifesavers on a world historical scale , even if there are concerns raise about the long term viability of all three. Socially I’d say that’s the case over a kind of longue duree (I touch on some of that here — https://unherd.com/2021/12/who-cares-about-the-end-of-the-world/) but I wanted to make a case about these smaller cultural irritations being the case for each generation and would up supplying my name to precisely the argument I wanted to critique
In 1992, the New York Times published an opinion piece about a kid named Evan who had *gasp* two moms. Two years later, the first episode of Friends introduced a lesbian couple in a loving, committed relationship. They spent the next ten years raising a kid together on primetime television.
People treat the gay jokes in the show as damning snapshots, but ignore the massive values shift toward acceptance and respect during the show's runtime (a values shift that was driven, in large part, by the show itself).
Yes … it was certainly progressive for its time, and criticized by the William Bennett types (much like Murphy Brown). Hence my not wanting to single out any particular show!
The thinking they imposed on the article is so one-dimensional, and then the writing is so dorky. It's horrible to think that somebody did that to your prose and then said "Okay, *now* this works."
I picture the four editors finishing the hack job and thinking, as Lily does at the end of To the Lighthouse: “It was done; it was finished. Yes, she thought, laying down her brush in extreme fatigue, I have had my vision.”
Something else to consider: "progress" doesn't move only one direction. There's a young, right-wing contingent who view '60s era racial equality and multiculturalism with the same distain young progressives view microagressions. Who's to say that in 20, 30, 50 years the world at large won't agree with right wingers?
"My grandmother thought sex before marriage was sinful. My mother thought her mother was repressed. I thought my mother was a sixties relic. My daughter will eventualy think I'm out of touch. My future granddaughter will think my daughter is something worse. That's not progress. That's just time passing."
Isn't it both? New generations not being satisfied with the world they're inheriting and so challenging it *is* how change and growth occur. Each generation is only going to take it so far, because it's exhausting and spans decades, and eventually we're chastised by our own oversteps, etc. Certainly we all have the youthful version of righteousness when we're young (though righteousness does not apply to the youngest gen alone, ever) but that's because the world is new to us/them. The youngest *are*, in a sense, "inventing" it, for themselves, regardless that the previous generation did the same for themselves. Previous generations, by that point in time, are done pushing so hard, so it's arguably important that the next gen picks up the baton and runs with it, even if they must, by nature, believe they discovered the baton.
I like the thrust of your original article, but I'd argue it was a little too convinced by its own thesis statement, that time passing - the obvious cyclical nature of generation POV shifts - should not be considered actual change or "growth". But that severely downplays how we got here, to the modern day. "Doing the work", as your Substack suggests, is the most important part. Being overly righteous and over-stepping (often because the pushback to doing anything less is just as intense anyway, so might as well get angry and go for broke) is a big part of "the work".
Yes, that's very much the "rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say. My own instincts tend toward a kind of small-c conservativism, not politically but in the sense that I'm aware I'm "always already" posthumous (and thus inclined to make this argument in lectures and elsewhere, drawing on Butterfield's critique of "Whig history"), but change/innovation simply wouldn't occur (relatively homogenous and prosocial Japan seems to be a case study in this over the past 40 years) as stagnation/quietism/etc. set in
The other interesting thing about this is what my wife said at the time: First she said something very similar to what you wrote, then looked at the article in question, noted it was largely about Friends (which she watched but I did not) and some other "TV shows," and realized this was not even the state of art as far as her own very progressive approach (she was still "feeling the Bern" in 2017) to social engagement went. This was just a...really weird artifact of Teen Vogue's "cultural moment"
Man I have a bunch of Teen Vogue covers someone at another blog made that you couldn’t tell if they were real or satire, I’ll restack this with those attached.
Sometimes it makes me mad how smart you are
I'd been waiting nine years to write this and you know I go hard!
You needed 150 dollars. It was shite but so what? You’re very funny about it. The young? Well I fear for them but in England the lower orders do comedy well. Everyday banter. The grandparents are always funnier though. They just need to live a little and get over themselves. I do worry that the funny street banter in everyday chats is decreasing though. Flattened by this weird glossy Netflixy crap. I hope and think that old tradition of having a laugh will be as precious to the young as it was to the oldies.
yeah, at the end of the day, it was 2017, I was (briefly) between jobs, and every dollar counted. and also: the Netflix stuff doesn't do it for me, either. they're falling more and more into a formula but it isn't a good one. The HBO Max Pee-Wee Herman documentary (the show I watched with my dad as a kid; something for everyone) was indeed quite good, though
Magnificent teardown of your own article.
I actually spend a lot of time (maybe I need a different hobby?) trying to guess which thing I do is going to be abhorred by my nieces when they grow up. I'm kind of glad to see I'm not the only one who does this. I can never imagine what it's gonna be but I just KNOW it's gonna be something. My husband and I joke about it sometimes, like... "someday people will be reading about this and be like I CANNOT BELIEVE THEY WERE COOKING WITH THAT / EATING THAT / WEARING THAT - NO WONDER _______ WAS UP / DOWN / WHATEVER!! IDIOTS!!"
I definitely remember reading an article about how Friends didn't age well - something that made the rounds repeatedly around this time - but I don't think it was this one. My memory is terrible though, so who knows.
I'm drinking a diet soda right now and I had a pop-tart for breakfast and I mean, obviously the future kids will judge me harshly for that. And I take pride in the fact that I'm holding up my end of doing stuff they can feel superior about someday.
yes, none of us is safe! I'd be a terrible historian if I didn't SHARE THIS ONE BIG IMPORTANT MESSAGE. and at least you already get it, so my work is partly done
"The editor wanted me to write about how backward the 90s were. How enlightened we are now. How the arc of history bends towards justice. I wanted to write about how the arc of history doesn't bend anywhere. How it's just people being people, always thinking they're better than the people who came before."
Please write the article you wanted to write - it's something I very much want to read.
I will!
I've had this conversation back and forth for years. Our descendants will always find fault with us in ways we can't even imagine - never mind our immediate progeny. Some, like my fondness for eating eggs and other animal products, are not exactly a secret.
Yes, and I think this is a fascinating thing for people to contemplate. The editors thought the sins of Friends made for a more compelling topic. Maybe we were both right (I don’t think so)
It certainly gives pause before engaging in summary judgments of people you've not met face to face. I expect my son and daughter to find me wanting in many regards - whether on climate change or the current political moment in the US - there is always something more that I could do or could have done. On the other hand, I've come to realize, as a parent, that having children grants tremendous "cover" for failures to act on all sorts of urgent matters, but the corollary is that they may be our most severe judges, rightly or wrongly.
A lovely reminder of the flow of time and not to associate any sense of self-worth or value of my own writing against failed pitches for what, historically, had been my “dream pubs.”
Often the bigger the byline, the worse the content I’ve had go out under my name … unless the editor was a close friend or they were just reprinting somethjng. It’s why I write for the same 6-12 places over and over most of the time
I think there's a lot of truth and wisdom in what you're saying here. But don't you also think the arc of modern history has, broadly, been in the right direction? That though the pendulum may sometimes swing too far or in the wrong direction, we live in a fairer world than 40 years ago, and they lived in a fairer and better world than 40 years before?
Absolutely, just in terms of antibiotics and air conditioning and the green revolution and so on — huge lifesavers on a world historical scale , even if there are concerns raise about the long term viability of all three. Socially I’d say that’s the case over a kind of longue duree (I touch on some of that here — https://unherd.com/2021/12/who-cares-about-the-end-of-the-world/) but I wanted to make a case about these smaller cultural irritations being the case for each generation and would up supplying my name to precisely the argument I wanted to critique
I'll be the Friends apologist.
In 1992, the New York Times published an opinion piece about a kid named Evan who had *gasp* two moms. Two years later, the first episode of Friends introduced a lesbian couple in a loving, committed relationship. They spent the next ten years raising a kid together on primetime television.
People treat the gay jokes in the show as damning snapshots, but ignore the massive values shift toward acceptance and respect during the show's runtime (a values shift that was driven, in large part, by the show itself).
Yes … it was certainly progressive for its time, and criticized by the William Bennett types (much like Murphy Brown). Hence my not wanting to single out any particular show!
You didn't write shush, did you? The article's painful enough, but that bit it is excruciating.
Worst sentence in the whole piece IMO. We could have AI analyze 100k words of my work and my bet is that’s the only shush.
The thinking they imposed on the article is so one-dimensional, and then the writing is so dorky. It's horrible to think that somebody did that to your prose and then said "Okay, *now* this works."
I picture the four editors finishing the hack job and thinking, as Lily does at the end of To the Lighthouse: “It was done; it was finished. Yes, she thought, laying down her brush in extreme fatigue, I have had my vision.”
That made me laugh out loud, so the life spirit triumphs.
They have had their vision. Now shush
Something else to consider: "progress" doesn't move only one direction. There's a young, right-wing contingent who view '60s era racial equality and multiculturalism with the same distain young progressives view microagressions. Who's to say that in 20, 30, 50 years the world at large won't agree with right wingers?
It’s very possible.
Is it really an OpEd if they have editorial input?
that's the $64,000 question
"My grandmother thought sex before marriage was sinful. My mother thought her mother was repressed. I thought my mother was a sixties relic. My daughter will eventualy think I'm out of touch. My future granddaughter will think my daughter is something worse. That's not progress. That's just time passing."
Isn't it both? New generations not being satisfied with the world they're inheriting and so challenging it *is* how change and growth occur. Each generation is only going to take it so far, because it's exhausting and spans decades, and eventually we're chastised by our own oversteps, etc. Certainly we all have the youthful version of righteousness when we're young (though righteousness does not apply to the youngest gen alone, ever) but that's because the world is new to us/them. The youngest *are*, in a sense, "inventing" it, for themselves, regardless that the previous generation did the same for themselves. Previous generations, by that point in time, are done pushing so hard, so it's arguably important that the next gen picks up the baton and runs with it, even if they must, by nature, believe they discovered the baton.
I like the thrust of your original article, but I'd argue it was a little too convinced by its own thesis statement, that time passing - the obvious cyclical nature of generation POV shifts - should not be considered actual change or "growth". But that severely downplays how we got here, to the modern day. "Doing the work", as your Substack suggests, is the most important part. Being overly righteous and over-stepping (often because the pushback to doing anything less is just as intense anyway, so might as well get angry and go for broke) is a big part of "the work".
Yes, that's very much the "rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say. My own instincts tend toward a kind of small-c conservativism, not politically but in the sense that I'm aware I'm "always already" posthumous (and thus inclined to make this argument in lectures and elsewhere, drawing on Butterfield's critique of "Whig history"), but change/innovation simply wouldn't occur (relatively homogenous and prosocial Japan seems to be a case study in this over the past 40 years) as stagnation/quietism/etc. set in
The other interesting thing about this is what my wife said at the time: First she said something very similar to what you wrote, then looked at the article in question, noted it was largely about Friends (which she watched but I did not) and some other "TV shows," and realized this was not even the state of art as far as her own very progressive approach (she was still "feeling the Bern" in 2017) to social engagement went. This was just a...really weird artifact of Teen Vogue's "cultural moment"
Man I have a bunch of Teen Vogue covers someone at another blog made that you couldn’t tell if they were real or satire, I’ll restack this with those attached.
We shouldn’t assume that kindness will be the virtue that the next generation is thinking they invented!
lol
Great article. Please don't use this profanity ("god damn it") in your writings. Thanks.
Point taken
honestly, the 2.0 is now punchier without, but when you're just hammering the mechanical keyboard...